"Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

¿Qué tienen en común el Anarquismo y el Comunismo? ¿Qué separa y une a estas dos formas de organizar la sociedad? ¿Nuestro fin es el mismo? Stalinistas, leninistas, marxistas y marxistas libertarios. ¿En qué se diferencian entre sí? ¿Y en qué se parecen?
pikete299

"Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por pikete299 » 17 Mar 2008, 09:07

http://www.icl-fi.org/english/wv/695/tibet.html
[...]

The Hell of Lamaist Tibet

Tibet is of little geopolitical importance for the imperialists. But it does pose a test of the resolve of the CCP Stalinists to defend their rule. Former Soviet leader Gorbachev’s willingness to cede the Baltic states and, most importantly, the USSR’s “influence” over East Germany intensified imperialist pressures against the Soviet Union and emboldened domestic counterrevolutionaries, finally leading to Yeltsin’s pro-imperialist coup in August 1991.

Imagen
When U.S. imperialist chief Clinton visited Beijing in June, he unfurled the banner of “autonomy” for Tibet—which, not accidentally, is the current program of the Dalai Lama—as part of his program for a “democratic” China. Clinton’s trip had all the trappings and hypocrisy of an Elmer Gantry revival, replete with tedious sermons on the virtues of democracy accompanied by confessions of human frailty. Autonomy under the Dalai Lama would have approximately the same relationship to democracy as Clinton’s (unremarkable) sexual proclivities have to chastity.

The stunning, picture-postcard beauty of “Shangri-La” notwithstanding, Tibet has the most minimal basis for human habitation, a reality which has facilitated its development as a distinct society, isolated, in the large, from the rest of the world as well as from such modern intrusions as literacy, medical care and civilization in general. Formed through the merger of a feudal-like aristocracy and a vast clerical estate making up, at times, over 20 percent of the male population, the Lamaocracy held sway over a society of peasants and herdsmen for hundreds of years until 1959. Only then, nine years after the entry of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) into the territory, did the Beijing bureaucracy begin to implement fundamental reforms in Tibet.

The theocracy in the Tibetan capital of Lhasa so effectively and brutally dominated the society that there is no accessible history of the kind of episodic peasant uprisings which characterized precapitalist societies throughout the rest of the world. In fact, there is no record of any unrest at all. It is a measure of the intensity of oppression and exploitation in Lamaist Tibet that what was perhaps proportionally the largest and most idle ruling stratum in human history was economically supported by growers of barley and herders of yak. At base, this meant the labor of women, since both the monks and a not small portion of the male population, who emulated the monastic life after “sinning” by procreating, were employed in contemplation.

After the PLA’s 1950 occupation of Tibet, American imperialism—with parallel efforts by the ruling classes of India, Taiwan and Japan—utilized Tibet’s ruling stratum and its fear of the least reform to foment resistance against the newly formed Chinese deformed workers state. In 1959, a rebellion inspired, armed and financed by the CIA originated in Tibet’s eastern reaches in China’s Sichuan province and culminated in a monk/aristocrat-led uprising in Lhasa. This effort—preordained to fail—was cynically launched by the U.S. simply to harass China. Against the imperialist hue and cry over “poor little Tibet,” the Trotskyists stood forthrightly for the defense of China (see “Trotskyist Youth Protest U.S. Moves Against Mao’s China,” page 13).

The rebellion was smashed, the Dalai Lama fled to India and the CCP quickly abolished his administration—the “Tibet Local Government”—which had been formed in 1951. Only then did Mao move to abolish ulag (forced peasant labor), slavery and the myriad of mandatory taxes paid to the aristocracy and monasteries. Previously, the monasteries simply appropriated children to replenish the monk population while villages were forced to hand over children for state functions in Lhasa, with boys thus “donated” taken by the monks as consorts. The land, livestock and tools of the aristocrats who fled into exile were distributed to the peasants, as were the land and chattel of the monasteries which had participated in the uprising. As one frequent visitor to the area described post-revolutionary Tibet, “at least now you don’t see emaciated serfs in rags carrying the litter of a noble dressed in warm clothing, turquoise rings and gold bracelets” (Guardian, 29 December 1973, quoted in A. Tom Grunfeld, The Making of Modern Tibet [1996]).

Even the modest reforms instituted under CCP rule were attenuated through sabotage by the remaining Tibetan aristocrats, as well as through the narrow policies of the Stalinist bureaucracy, which was shot through with “Great Han” Chinese chauvinism. Those aristocrats who stayed were reimbursed for their property, as were the “loyal” monasteries which were then subsidized by the Chinese state. Mao’s “Great Leap Forward” of the late 1950s—a utopian campaign to catapult China to the status of an advanced industrial power on the basis of raw peasant labor—grievously undermined agrarian and social reform. Substituting utopian sloganeering for material reality, this leap backward brought industrial and agricultural production to a standstill, leading to a devastating famine throughout China.

Subsequently, Tibetans were subjected to fierce Great Han chauvinism during the “Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution” beginning in the mid-1960s, in which Mao mobilized millions of student youth to buttress his position in an intra-bureaucratic factional feud. In this grossly misnamed campaign, which took aim at all things “foreign” and at such “capitalist” influence as accumulated scientific knowledge and classical music, Tibetan language and native dress (including the distinctive hairstyle) were proscribed. Much of what had been at the core of Tibetan “culture”—monasteries, religious artifacts and texts—was simply smashed up and destroyed, although with the appreciable side effect of driving monks into actual labor. By decree, nomadic herdsmen were “transformed” into farmers overnight and the peasantry organized into large agricultural communes which lacked not only the machines but the soil necessary for large-scale farming. Predictably, agricultural production was so disrupted that by 1981 one-fifth of the Tibetan population required subsidies from the central government merely to survive.

Deng Xiaoping’s rise to power shortly after Mao’s death was accompanied by the lifting of Han-chauvinist strictures against Tibetan language, attire and hairstyles. The monasteries were rebuilt and refurbished, while the idle monks returned in droves and currently number some 40,000 to 50,000. At the same time, the “market reforms” initiated under Deng have increased Han privilege in the area, as well as the distaste of most Tibetans for their occupiers. The growing presence of the PLA, with its relatively well-paid officers and soldiers and their families and its prominent role in business ventures (geared in Tibet primarily to tourism), has also led to an infusion of ethnic Han entrepreneurs employing Han workers.

Thus, the real gains for the Tibetan masses from the export of the 1949 Chinese Revolution—from the introduction of modern health care to the establishment of a modicum of education, which lowered the level of illiteracy from 90 percent to roughly 45 percent—stand alongside continuing glaring inequalities. Tibetan farmers and herders earn an average of $68 a year, while 79 percent of Tibetan women of childbearing age are illiterate. Such inequalities are rapidly increasing with the introduction of capitalist market “reforms.” [...]


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Comunista integral
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Re: "Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por Comunista integral » 17 Mar 2008, 14:45

Tibet está entre dos imperialismos, el yanqui y el chino.
Para todas las ocasiones en que lo amerite (y no son pocas):

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Stalker
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Re: "Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por Stalker » 17 Mar 2008, 15:07

Es que los imperialismo se ponen a favor de la "liberación de los pueblos oprimidos" cuando ello le sirve para debilitar otros imperialismos. No porque crean que "los pueblos" tengan derecho a ser libres y no estar tutelados por Grandes Hermanos.

El caso de la independencia de Kosovo, más atrás de otros pueblos de la antigua yugoeslavia, o todavía más atrás de los países bálticos y otros pueblos de la antigua Unión Soviética, son claros ejemplos de apuestas estratégicas de USA y la Comunidad Europea por sustraer a esas poblaciones de la influencia de Moscú y de situarlos en su órbita.

También el caso del apoyo al independentismo cubano contra el colonialismo español por parte de USA en 1898 es otro ejemplo de lo mismo.

De todos modos, el que en la mayoría de los países occidentales haya una opinión pública mayormente favorable al Tíbet y al Dalai Lama, tampoco creo que se pueda explicar exclusivamente como una estrategia imperialista para debilitar a China.

Más allá de eso, hay el sentimiento humanista de solidaridad con otra gente,mla empatía más allá de las diferencias culturales, religiosas o raciales, paraq con quienes están viviendo una situación de falta de libertades y de discriminación. Ese sentimiento puede ser instrumentalizado por los poderes dominantes pero es la base de cualquier tipo de convivencia espontánea no autoritaria.

Tengo serias objecciones respecto al clericalismo lamaísta y a la tradiciones tibetanas, y pienso que chinos y tibetanos podrían compartir ese tierra sin establecer una jerarquía, con el mismo derecho, pero ante el espectáculo del ejército chino avasallando a personas cuyo único delito es no aceptar su tutela paternalista, me pongo del lado de los independentistas tibetanos.

nihilo
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Re: "Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por nihilo » 17 Mar 2008, 19:53

Stalker, si hubiera más gente que se tomen unos pocos minutos antes de opinar las cosas en política fueran más sencilla. Sólo algo de lógica y ética en el análisis es es secreto de la lucidez. Concuerdo absolutamente contigo.

Pongo un comentario de un blog:
Pero la mejor manera de que ese país, ahora invadido por China deje de ser una teocracia y pase a ser un país más abierto y con más libertad para sus habitantes no es masacrar a los monjes tibetanos
Recordemos que como Irak o Palestina, Tíbet es un territorio invadido al más puro estilo colonial, no nos gustará la teocracia lamaísta pero estimo tampoco nos gusta el Islam político y no por eso le damos la razón a los invasores.

Free Tibet
La pedagogía no ha de pretender civilizar a los hombres, sino formar personas libres, caracteres soberanos y la voluntad, tan duramente oprimida hasta ahora, no debe debilitarse más. Max Stirner

pikete299

Re: "Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por pikete299 » 17 Mar 2008, 22:33

Curioso.

Los anarkistas critican a los leninistas/trotskistas por ser poco democraticos. Pero los leninistas defienden el derecho democratico a la autodeterminacion y los anarkistas no.

Los anarkistas espanyoles niegan el derecho democratico a la autodeterminacion al sur de los Pirineos y callan la represion del regimen espanyol, pero se sienten molestos por la represion (contra contrarrevolucionarios clericales budistas) en la China Popular y apoyan la independencia del Tibet (como pretexto para la contrarrevolucion democratica).

Stalker
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Re: "Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por Stalker » 18 Mar 2008, 00:29

Pues si "la autodeterminacíón" es lo que hay en el Tíbet bajo control chino, apaga y vámonos.

Anda que los leninista pueden dar muchas lecciones de "autodeterminación" con todas las barbaridades que han hecho cuando han llegado al poder...

Por otro lado, tampoco es que me ilusione que los tibetanos vuelvan bajo el control del clero lamaísta. Pero sí que me gustaría los tibetanos que lo deseasen pudiesen expresar su cultura, su religión sin cortapisas, en lugar de que se les impongan los comisarios políticos del Partido, como sucede ahora.

Lo mejor es no estar mandado por nadie, ni que te mande sea de cerca ni que sea de lejos, y que cada persona decida por sí misma respetando a los demás sin imposiciones de otros, eso es lo que entiendo por "autodeterminación", ---no la versión leninista.

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Re: "Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por Comunista integral » 18 Mar 2008, 02:01

Observa que ha puesto "la China Popular". O sea, este tío o cree que el capitalismo de Estado chino es un socialismo (stalinista-maoísta) o cree que es un "Estado obrero deformado" (troskista), lo cual en cualquier caso significa su defensa incondicional ante cualquier conflicto bélico con otro país.

En vez de adoptar un punto de vista de clase, adopta un punto de vista de "naciones reaccionarias" vs "naciones progresistas".

La reacción cerca a los proletarios tibetanos desde 3 frentes. El primero, su propio gobierno y clase dominante con EEUU. El segundo, el imperialismo chino y la izquierda del capital que, con tal de ponerse en contra de los yanquis, se junta con cualquier cosa.
Para todas las ocasiones en que lo amerite (y no son pocas):

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biozombie222
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Re: "Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por biozombie222 » 18 Mar 2008, 06:01

los ke apoya a la independencia tibetano quisiera recordarles ke en espana existe ETA y Probremas con gibraltar.china nunca a estado en la parte del terrorismo nunca hemos dicho viva ETA free pais vasco.los rebelde tibetano tiene misma sentido a ETA

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regue
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Re: "Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por regue » 18 Mar 2008, 11:15

pikete299 escribió:Curioso.

Los anarkistas critican a los leninistas/trotskistas por ser poco democraticos. Pero los leninistas defienden el derecho democratico a la autodeterminacion y los anarkistas no.

Los anarkistas espanyoles niegan el derecho democratico a la autodeterminacion al sur de los Pirineos y callan la represion del regimen espanyol, pero se sienten molestos por la represion (contra contrarrevolucionarios clericales budistas) en la China Popular y apoyan la independencia del Tibet (como pretexto para la contrarrevolucion democratica).
:o

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Re: "Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por Comunista integral » 18 Mar 2008, 13:17

biozombie222 escribió:los ke apoya a la independencia tibetano quisiera recordarles ke en espana existe ETA y Probremas con gibraltar.china nunca a estado en la parte del terrorismo nunca hemos dicho viva ETA free pais vasco.los rebelde tibetano tiene misma sentido a ETA
Aquí nadie ha dicho "¡Por la liberación nacional de Tibet!". Y aun si lo hubiéramos dicho, eso no hubiera significado apoyar a ninguna "vanguardia" que se arrogue el monopolio de esa lucha.

Simplemente hemos dicho que acá no nos van a engañar con lo de "China Popular vs clericalismo tibetano + imperialismo yanqui".
Para todas las ocasiones en que lo amerite (y no son pocas):

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Re: "Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por calderero » 18 Mar 2008, 18:32

El imperialismo, ese tigre de papel como lo llamaba Mao, no es algo exclusivamente made in USA...

Tibet in the grip of Chinese imperialism

The Tibetan people's revolt against the Chinese occupation has once more brought to the attention of the world the state of subjection in which the territory has been held for decades by the military presence of China's "People's Liberation Army". Tibet is geographically strategic. After the discovery and consequent ransacking of raw materials that are essential to China's economy (uranium in prime position), reducing the country to little more than a nuclear dump, Tibet has also had to put up with the Beijing regime's demographic policies of Sinization, part of a general plan for the entire Far East that China has been pushing since the 1960s, with no qualms about the use of fiercely repressive measures to do so.

Tibet is thus another area of strategic importance to China, along with Burma or Darfur, where Chinese interests are protected and defended by local regimes with the use of systematic repression of all forms of struggle. Indeed, for years now China has had its eyes on Africa.

Its huge financial resources have now enabled China to become an international-level investor, supporting industrial projects in such places as South Africa, Venezuela, Sudan and Indochina. It can make agreements to manage corridors for raw materials from the Caspian Sea to its industrial areas in South-East Asia, an equal competitor with the likes of Russia, the USA and local potentates such as Iran or India. And thanks to the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, it is also the region's anti-Islamic policeman.

China's gigantic financial surplus is the result of decades of accumulation thanks to the second way of "parallel development" (the profits from agriculture invested in industrialization) that China's leaders followed from the late '60s to the early '70s, which consisted in the exploitation of Chinese workers, and also to the establishment, appropriation and management of the surplus by the Chinese State, which never feared to use - and still freely uses - open repression in order to impose its plans.

In fact, there never was a transition to communism in China. No technocracy ever took power. What we have seen over the last 60 years is State-capitalist management of the country by a rigidly-centralized bureaucracy, that is now running the transition to the wildest form of capitalism without first passing through the Western democratic system.

The tragedy of Tibet and its people is one and the same as the tragedy of Chinese workers, victims of the State dominion of the People's Republic of China, in the name... of the people!

For the liberation of Tibet, for the self-determination of the Tibetan people, for workers' autonomy in Tibet and in China!


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FEDERAZIONE dei COMUNISTI ANARCHICI

17 March 2008
Aportemos a nuestras organizaciones de clase, a la construcción popular en nuestros lugares de trabajo, de estudio, en nuestros sectores profesionales, en nuestros barrios y pueblos, en todos los espacios donde estemos presentes.

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calderero
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Mensaje por calderero » 18 Mar 2008, 18:55

El imperialismo chino, también en Haití:

HIP- Port au Prince - As Chinese riot police clash with Tibetan protesters over that country's independence, it calls into question the role of over 1000 members of China’s People’s Armed Police or PAP who have served in Haiti. Although the PAP is often referred to by the United Nations as a police force in Haiti, most experts call it a military force because it is an integral part of China's People’s Liberation Army.

The Chinese contingent, serving in Haiti since the ouster of the democratically-elected president Jean-Bertrand Aristide in 2004, has also been the target of controversy. Many Haitians condemned their presence as representing the hypocrisy of the UN mission in their country calling for the restoration of democracy. One protester commented in direct reference to Chinese and Jordanian involvement in Haiti in 2004, "We know there are many countries that are part of the UN mission that not democratic themselves. How can they come here and pretend to teach us about democracy when they don't allow free elections in their own countries."
Aportemos a nuestras organizaciones de clase, a la construcción popular en nuestros lugares de trabajo, de estudio, en nuestros sectores profesionales, en nuestros barrios y pueblos, en todos los espacios donde estemos presentes.

EL PUEBLO AVANZA CON ORGANIZACIÓN Y UNIDAD DE LOS QUE LUCHAN

biozombie222
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Re: "Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por biozombie222 » 19 Mar 2008, 05:14

entendi mal del tituro(Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas)soy un chino ke he vivido la mayoria tiempo de mi vida en madrid y voto a pesoe si podia .intendo deciros ke la democracia en estilo europeo o americano no funciona en todo el mundo .(el comunismo chino) es actualmente casi capitarismo funciona muy bien en china por lo vista la economia esta levantado mucho en estos anos.como provisto la mayoria paises de europo estan en la parte de free tibrt y los informaciones ke se puede consegir en europa siempre son los comunismo chino mato tal personas inocente, no hay libertal en china.....y nunca sale en la primera pagina de prensas ke dice la banda terrorismo dalai lama puso bombas en chen du ....jinan mato xxx personas ke tiene guerillas con la base en india ke cruza frecuentemente la frontera china india .china en estos anos por mantener crecimianto de la economia ha dado pasos atras contra terrorismo .....y dalai lama aprovecha pa pedir mas poder pa los monjes .hoy en dia las imperialistas no esta adoptado pa cobernal y los monjes menos

biozombie222
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Re: "Tibet libre" claman los imperialistas.

Mensaje por biozombie222 » 19 Mar 2008, 05:17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo
echo de un chino del hongkong es un poco radical pero en mucho sentido tiene razon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVPlT9GW ... re=related
Última edición por biozombie222 el 19 Mar 2008, 05:27, editado 1 vez en total.

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